Story-ideas-1011172

Lawsuit rabbi suspended from Board meetings

  • Kahn WendyHOME
A conflict of interest over a case in the Western Cape High Court against the South African Jewish Board of Deputies (Cape) over a ban on women singing at Jewish communal events has resulted in the suspension of Progressive Rabbi Julia Margolis, chair of the South African Centre for Religious Equality and Diversity (SACRED), from Board meetings.
by SUZANNE BELLING | Apr 13, 2016

The case was originally brought by two Jewish Capetonians, Gilad Stern (who is Orthodox) and Sarah Goldstein, and was later joined by SACRED. It relates specifically to the exclusion of women singing at  the Yom Hashoah, Holocaust Memorial Day events in Cape Town.

Wendy Kahn, national director of the SAJBD, told SA Jewish Report: “Rabbi Margolis was invited to be part of our Gauteng Council a year ago in order to represent the Progressive voice at our Board table... During that time she did not raise any concerns regarding the Yom Hashoah agenda with our Council. 

“Notwithstanding our willingness to engage with Rabbi Margolis, as soon as it became clear that she had participated in the institution of legal proceedings against the SAJBD, our lawyers advised that it would be inappropriate for us to meet or to have her present during Board deliberations while the litigation is ongoing.”

Rabbi Julia MargolisThe Gauteng chairman of the Board, Shaun Zagnoev, informed the chairman of Progressive shul Bet David, Desmond Sweke, of the SAJBD’s decision to suspend her.


RIGHT: Rabbi Julia Margolis

Kahn said Rabbi Margolis was not an elected member of the Gauteng Council and that her invitation would be temporarily suspended pending the duration of the litigation.

“We have, however, made it clear to chairman Sweke that we would welcome the participation of an alternate member of the Progressive community in the interim to ensure that they are properly represented at all our Board discussions.”

Kahn, who with the Board’s head of communications, Charisse Zeifert, had arranged to hold a meeting with Rabbi Margolis but cancelled it on learning the rabbi was a complainant in the case.

SACRED and the SAJBD have a long history on this issue that goes back to before she was serving on either board, said Rabbi Margolis.

“From the time I realised that legal proceedings were unavoidable, I attempted to schedule a meeting with Wendy Kahn and Charisse Zeifert (calling well in advance, and explaining the purposes of my requested meeting) which was primarily to keep the channels of communication open.”

She said she intended to excuse herself from the table should the subject (of the court case) be on the Board's agenda for discussion. “I was informed only an hour before our scheduled meeting that they were cancelling it. Thereafter, I received a letter suspending me.

“With respect to being ‘repeatedly invited to attend meetings of the Board’, for over a year as ‘a guest’, that is certainly far from my understanding of the word ‘co-opted’ onto a committee, though I admit that English is my third language - so perhaps I am naive. Yes, they called my boss and asked that he replace me - he refused - he supports me 100 per cent. In fact I have letters of support from all over the world and across the denominational spectrum.”

Rabbi Margolis said SACRED held meetings of interest, many of them grounded in interfaith.

“We try to deepen our understanding of many faiths, the difficulties people face within their faiths and, yes, if we observe blatant discrimination, then we speak up, try to engage with whomever we need to - or as a last resort we can approach the Human Rights Commission or the courts.

“This (discrimination) includes the ban imposed by the SA Jewish Board of Deputies on women singing at Yom Hashoah. This decision is based in principle and is, in no sense, personal. I am therefore deeply unhappy at the manner in which this matter has become personalised against me, rather than focusing on the key issues involved, which are of great importance to the manner in which the SAJBD operates and its commitment to constitutional values - and equality in particular.

She said the Board is a secular organisation which is organising a secular memorial to a secular tragedy which “stands for all of time as a warning against the evils of discrimination in any form, then goes on to implement a policy that excludes half of the people it is supposed to represent from full participation.

“The justification is supposedly to be more inclusive. This policy of exclusion, now entering its 11th year, in my opinion should be completely unacceptable to any thinking Jew worthy of the name.”

Rabbi Margolis concluded by saying SACRED “respects and defends Orthodox practices in Orthodox settings. Our interest has, and always will, ‘stop at the synagogue door’.”

Kahn concluded her statement by saying: “We look forward to Rabbi Margolis rejoining our Board once the litigation is concluded.”



READ LAST WEEK’S JEWISH REPORT STORY ON THIS:
BOARD SUED IN EQUALITY COURT OVER ‘KOL ISHA’

24 Comments

  1. 24 Rav Shalom 13 Apr
    More Board exclusion!
    The SAJBD is painfully wrong to exclude women from fully participating in the Yom HaShoah commemorations and indeed any event.

    They take this direction from a Rabbinate who disgrace their position of Faith leaders in assuming this stance presumably citing Halacha as justification.

    The SAJBD should primarily be mindful of their
    responsibility to the entire SA Jewish community.
    Surely they know that banning sections of the community from participating is morally indefensible?

    And to choose Yom Hashoa as an occasion to exhibit the political power of fundamentalists at the expense of the general Jewish population is doubl dishonourable and reprehensible.
    Have they no ethical compass?

    The SAJBD assumes the mantle of representing SA Jewry to the wider society.
    Their mandate should be inclusion and never exclusion.

    Imagine a hearing where the SAJBD is defending the Jewish community against discrimination.
    The opposition would be justified in discrediting their bona fides by citing the Board’s own exclusionary behaviour and practise.

    Where does this hypocritical piousness end?

    Do we now exclude non-sheital wearers from Community events because it offends a few?
    Do we begin to police correct female attire for appropriately sanctioned modesty?
    And every other ostensibly immutable regulation as defined and selected by the clergy.

    It’s time the SAJBD re-constitutes itself into a 21st
    Century body sensitive to the wider community it is elected to serve rather than blindly following medieval edicts steeped in a deep misogyny.

    SAJBD please lead and not follow.

    If those amongst us choose to shut out the voices of half the community then that should be their choice and loss.
    Why are they permitted and encouraged to impose their discriminatory practices upon the entire community?
    We should not allow their dysfunction to prevail within our observance of this extremely hallowed day of commemoration.

    The Boards behaviour towards Rabbi Margolis is tragically emblamatic of their exclusionary stance and further justifies the painful decision of those taking the Board to court.

  2. 23 Bluepen 13 Apr
    Gilad Stern is an Orthodox Jewish male.
    correct your article
  3. 22 Marc Lipshitz 13 Apr
    I gues "rabbi" Margolis fails to note the simple fact that Yom Hashoah commemorates the deaths of JEWS, that the audience will be Jews and, in South Africa, 90% of that audience will be ORTHODOX Jews.  Now I understand that "rabbi" Margolis doesn't care about Jewish law and traditions, but the 90% of the audience that will be ORTHODOX Jews do!  Or does "rabbi" Margolis seek to ensure that there will be no Orthodox Jews there so she and her fellow progressive friends can turn an event commemorating the death of 6 million Jews into a political statement for her movement?
  4. 21 Marc Lipshitz 14 Apr
    So "rabbi" Margolis joins in a legal case against the board in an attempt to try to make it impossible for Orthodox men to attend a Jewish communal function, and then is upset that there are repercussions for her actions?  Here is a reality check for "rabbi" Margolis- while undertaking legal action against a group you do not get to remain part of that group until such time as your legal action is concluded. 

    "rabbi" Margolis needs to realise that as much as she and her liberal friends want to try and rewrite Judaism and Jewish practices so satisfy their personal desires, the South African jewish community is overwhelmingly Orthodox.  And Orthodox Jews are not going to simply stop observing Judaism because her and her buddies have decided to throw out Jewish law.
  5. 20 Rav Shalom 14 Apr
    Marc,
    Your prejudice is blinding you.
    You reel off “fact”and “figures” like a drunk Rabbi at Purim.

    A more accurate demographic description of the SA Jewish community would be that the majority of SA Jews are aligned to the Orthodox movement.
    But look around our community for a moment and realise that most of these folk do not lead closeted lives in full compliance with the lifestyles and mores proposed by the current crop of Orthodox rabbis.
    A very small minority of the Jewish population is shomer Shabbos as visualised by the Rabbinate.
    A small minority  keeps Kosher.  A small minority attends shul.
    Most identify as Jewish as a part of their identity and leave it to others to keep the faith alive so to speak.
    Yet – more out of ignorance and/or indifference – they say they are Orthodox.

    Generally,  Progressive Jews are more committed to their Judaism in practice as they actually made a considered faith based move away from Orthodoxy.
    Same can be said of Egalitarian and other non- Orthodox Jews.
    This is not value based – we should value all commitment and all forms of observance and ritual as long as it follows Hillels golden rule.
    "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn."
    And so my bracha to you is exactly that:  Go and learn.

    And when you learn you will find out that prohibiting women from singing is an interpretation, not a pillar of Jewish faith. That there are other legitimate interpretations and practises that do not constitute rank discrimination emanating from a medieval mind-set.
    Also you should please try to stop being so judgmental and inconsiderate of fellow Jews.
    Anger management comes to mind.

    Save your irrepressible outrage for the political realm.
    Your blinkered approach is perfectly aligned with the ANCYL and Women’s League who immediately defend their president and attack his critics without any thought as to the issues.
    Perhaps you may find happiness within those structures.

    Please attend the Yom HaShoah commemorations together with the entire community.
    Relax your mind away from the anger you feel against your fellow Jews and concentrate on the horror of the holocaust, the needless murder of your family and all our families.
    The circumstances and authoritarian mind-sets that allowed this atrocity to happen.
    The communal invocation of “never again”.
    The dealing with the PTSD that we all suffer even unto the 7th generation.

    It is sad that our secular leadership who organise this event have to be dragged into court to make them understand how to behave.
    They seem to be in litigation mode now with a commensurate sub judice attitude.

    My heart cries.
  6. 19 Marc Lipshitz 14 Apr
    Rav Shalom Thanks for indicating how when unable to deal with facts you think descending into ad hominem attacks somehow will make you seem justified!  I am "not a drunk Rabbi at Purim", though I must thank you for so clearly showing your bigotry and prejudice!

    And I note how you abuse what Hillel said- "Go and learn" was not "go and learn what you like and discard the rest!"  But then progressive Judaism has hardly got much to do with Judaism anymore in any case!  Once Reform published a decision that having a bris milah is optional, it threw away any vestige of being an actual Jewish movement rather than what it is, a secular movement with some Jews in it!  So the fact that Reform wants to ignore the issue of Kol Isha is no surprise- after all, Reform has already chucked out the divinity of the Torah, Shabbos and Bris Milah- the things that have always defined Judaism.  It is no surprise that a Reform organisation would turn to secular law to try and ensure that a Jewish function becomes something only they can attend, while actual Jews who follow Jewish law cannot attend because the reform "rabbis" have decided that there is no need for Jews to actually be Jewish or follow Jewish law!

    Any event at which women will be singing I will NOT attend, I will advise all my congregants NOT to attend, I will advise friends and family to NOT attend.  Reform wants to have a secular commemoration with women singing for themselves, I don't care.  But the moment they try to force the entire community to break Jewish law along with them because they have decided to ditch the Torah and Jewish tradition, I will stay away and let Reform deal with the fact that they have caused the failure of a communal event because they are too selfish tp allow Orthodox Jews to follow Jewish law!
  7. 18 Dayenu 15 Apr
    Thank you, Rabbi Margolis, for holding fast to your brave and principled stand. As you know, Judaism has always evolved as life has changed for the Jews over time and space. The Orthodox idea that authentic Judaism requires us to fence ourselves off from change is a relatively new idea, born in response to early Reform Judaism. The truth does not stand still, and neither does Torah, which belongs to all the people Israel, not one segment alone. Turn it and turn it, for everything is in it. In the long run you will be standing on the right side of history.

    Thank you, too, Rabbi Margolis, for maintaining your position with such strength and poise, dispassionately, without resentment or malice toward those who oppose you. Change, though inevitable, is hard, and we must maintain compassion for our brothers and sisters who struggle against it. Compassion without capitulation. We do not expect them to lie down without a fight for what they believe in; but a little respect would be nice, nachon? You are an inspiration to your friend and colleague across the sea, in Mississippi, another place where we struggle for change.
  8. 17 Carol Kahn 15 Apr
    Mr Marc Lipshitz, I would think a rather mean spirited, belittling letter - we become our own worst enamies in 
    using such harsh words!! 
  9. 16 Marc Lipshitz 15 Apr
    Rav Shalom it seems you think your attempts to disparage the Orthodox community actually reflect reality!  There are more frum people in this community than ever before.  More shtiebels overflowing with frum families from every tradition of Judaism be they Chassidim or misnagdim and even amongst those that are not frum there are many who aspire to improve or even admit that while they are not frum, the correct way to observe Judaism is to be frum though they choose not to.

    Nor is the religiosity of the community the pivotal point here- it is the fact that it is a COMMUNNAL event and should be open to all.  What the liberal Jews are trying to do is to turn it into an event which services only one segment of the community and chases those away who do not agree with their attempts to rewrite and alter Judaism!  "rabbi" Margolis liberak Jews can decide they no longer think halachah has any relevance.  They can choose to ignore the Torah and belong to a movement where they have decided the Torah is just another man made document, where they choose to ignore the laws of kashrus unless the person feels like obeying them, where they can state bris milah is a choice and not mandatory no one can stop them.  What can we do is to refuse to recognise the legitimacy of a movement that has effectively stopped being a Jewish movement but has instead become a feel good movement with some Jewish members.  I for one call for everyone to boycott the Yom Hashoah celebrations if Reform gets their way and forces their ideaology into an event meant to commemorate the deaths of Jews in a Jewish manner!  Let them go there and find that they are rejected by the entire community!  Of if the event goes ahead with this travesty, let them come on stage and have the entire audience walk out on them, showing their contempt for those that would bring shame on the community, who would spit on Jewish traditions when we are gathered to mourn those who died al Kiddush Hashem!
  10. 15 nat cheiman 15 Apr
    As yids we shouldn't fight. Theres space for all, including alternative opinions. Let it be.
  11. 14 Rabbi Adrian M Schell 15 Apr
    Your picture to illustrate the article on Facebook is not reflecting the content of the article at all and has the only intention to undermine Rabbi Margolis as a serious and respectable rabbi. Never would you present a picture of a male Rabbi as a sex object. It is chauvinistic and below the belt. I am quite shocked and I think a public apology of the JR is needed.
  12. 13 Tana Rose 15 Apr
    The case was originally brought to the Court by two Jewish Capetonians, Gilad Stern (who is an Orthodox Jewish Male) and Sarah Goldstein. Stern and Goldstein were subsequently joined in the matter by The South African Centre for Religious Equality and Diversity (SACRED) which is chaired by Rabbi Julia Margolis.
    A fact that seems to have been forgotten, judging by the personal attack that's being waged on Rabbi Julia Margolis and other segments of the Jewish community. 

    The key issue is that a ban has been imposed on women singing at the Yom Hashoah communal event - and some parties feel that this is discriminatory. That's the crux of the issue. And as with any issue discussed within our community, there will be differing views. Perhaps we should strive to express those views in a less bigoted fashion - so that we keep the case being argued in point.

    To Gilad Stern, Sarah Goldstein and SACRED, the move you took to ensure that the values of tolerance and fairness in our community is maintained, is applauded. It is a pity that this had to be taken through our legal system, instead of it being resolved within the community. Notwithstanding, I'm sure that steps were taken to try and resolve this amicably, prior to engaging the legal system.

    To the claimants, I do hope that your brave stance is successful. Change is always difficult, but perhaps living within an environment that practices discrimination is even more difficult.
     
  13. 12 Phyllis Levy 15 Apr
    From a voice in the US: Rabbi Margolis is an amazing strong young Jewish leader who is the epitome of reasonableness. She is being very appropriate in her approach to this issue - which is one of discrimination in public, not religious, venues. As simple as that. To suspend her from the Board is absurd. She states that she understands that she would need to recuse herself from conversations at Board meetings regarding this case - that should be adequate.  
  14. 11 Gary Rewald 16 Apr
    The issue of Kol ISha has been debated for years and will never be resolved to everyones satisfaction. What is true however, is that there is definately difference of opinion EVEN in orthodox circles. 

    I refer everyone to the website of the Liverpool Hebrew Congregation website at www.princesroad.org where the following is found about the choir.

    Liverpool Old Hebrew Congregation has a long and very proud musical tradition. Our choir was formed in the mid-19th century and led by Abraham Saqui from 1858 until his death in 1893. Saqui was one of the world’s leading composers of synagogue music in the Victorian era and trained the choir to an exceptionally high standard. It performed regularly at local and national events, in a time when many mainstream Orthodox Hebrew congregations had choirs. The repertoire included pieces by the finest composers of synagogue liturgy, including Sulzer, Lewandowski, Mombach, Naumbourg, Salaman, Alman and many more, as well as Saqui’s own work. The high standards were maintained long after Saqui’s death, notably under Rev AB Coleman’s tenure from the 1910s. In 1933, the leadership fell to the young Raphael “Rafe” Dorfman, who had been a member of the choir for some time. He served as choirmaster for an incredible 68 years, until retiring through ill-health in 2001. His brother Charles served a similar period as choir librarian until his death in 2000.​ 

    In 1941, under the strain of World War II, the decision was made to recruit a small number of women into the choir to compensate for the evacuation of many of the boy choristers and also the active service of some of the men. 

    The women who joined the choir were Rafe and Charles’ sister, their wives and young daughters. Our congregants became accustomed to the finest musical traditions, delivered by their beloved choirand spectacular chazzanim such as Rev Herman Bornstein.​

    After the war and throughout much of the remainder of the 20th century, it was not uncommon for mainstream Anglo-Orthodox congregations to retain a mixed choir of this type, however, we believe we are now the only Orthodox congregation in the UK to retain a mixed choir.

    As we reach the time of Pesach, Torah teaches us in Parsha Shemot that immediatly upon the children of Israel walking on dry land following the drowning of the Egyptians "Miriam, the prophetess, Aaron's sister, took a timbrel in her hand, and all the women came out after her with timbrels and with dances. And Miriam called out to them, Sing to the Lord, for very exalted is He; a horse and its rider He cast into the sea"

    Miriam amd the woman danced and sang to Hashen in praise and in thanks in the destruction of our enemies.

    And I have no doubt that not a single man covered his eyes so as not to see or his ears so as not to hear!. 

    So to those who vehemantly proclaim halachic precedence I ask....Would you argue that listening to the Jewish Kid Gene Simmons of KISS is halachically ok BECAUSE he is a man, but Barbra Streisand singing Avinu Malkeinu is somehow a problem BECAUSE she is a a woman?

     "Its the MUSIC stupid!" is what I would shout out!.

    Listen to the music and judge the music and the performance, not simply the gender of the singer.! 

    BY NOT hearing the the G-d given talents of 50% of the population you are denying that Hashem provided women with these talents for all to share in and to be inspired from.

    Many, including myself, believe that this is the essence of Jewish Music - a talent given by Hashem used in praising Hashem. What can possibly be wrong in listening to Streisand, or Neshama Carlebach or Chava Alberstein or Ofra Haza or the mutitude of female and mixed choirs using their talents to inspire in the same way that it is done by male singers and choirs?  Note I specifically did not include Madonna, or Brittany Spears as I can see and appreciate the objection with their perfomances from a religious aspect. Surely it should be the same decision for Gene Simmons. Not his gender but the nature of his performance.

    But, even as I write this in support of choosing to listen to women voices in song, I acknowledge that to many in the orthodox world, this is still a problem and I still can appreciate and accept their decisions. 

    Therefore, I would appeal to SACRED to stop the legal challenge -  its futile and childish - kinda like peeing a dark suit - you feel better but no-one notices!. Even if you win, you will not make friends of those who do not accept your position and you will detract from the community Yom Hashoah dedications.

    Have your own event - invite the community and let them decide where it wishes to attend. By doing so you raise the issue and challenge the establishment to take note of your position without alienating the community at large. You have nothing to gain in the law suit and everything to lose. If you truly beleive you have the support, prove it. And if not, continue to advocate by putting on events for the community to show its support or not of your goals. If you then succeed, its because you have won community support and not because you have kinda won on a legal challenge. 
  15. 10 Kerahdah 19 Apr
    When will we see a few comments in Hebrew? Or is that no longer the language of Jews. I'm a non-Jew, so I'm curious.
  16. 9 Rav Shalom 20 Apr
    Apologies to Marc and any others offended by my callous reference to inebriated Rabbis.
    It was meant as humour in that there is a Purim tradition to (temporarily) become so drunk as to confuse heroes with villains, friends from enemies, good from bad.

    In this case I was alluding to the Kol Isha prohibition which I feel has been misinterpreted and thereby confusing moral behaviour with immoral.

    For me the moral principle – and thus the other reference to Hillel’s “Golden Rule” - is clear.
    By invoking and enforcing a discriminatory interpretation of Halacha the Board and the guidance they follow is plain wrong.
    It is clearly hurtful to ban women from fully participating at Community events on the basis of gender.

    Those that follow Halachic dictums are guided by their Rabbis whose education and training give them contextual reference to the laws and observance.
    Halacha is not finite – as some would make out.
    Halacha is an interpretation and is a result of much discussion, debate and study over centuries.
    As circumstances change so does the Halachic practise.
    So in that sense it is arbitrary - though not in a loose manner.
    In practical terms it is up to a local Rabbi to issue a psak – a legal ruling based on precedent and that Rabbi’s deep wisdom and knowledge.

    Therefore it is not you Marc that I criticize.
    It is the Rabbinate that insists on this Kol Isha prohibition regardless of the pain caused.
    They know it is a choice as they have studied alternatives where Kol Isha is interpreted differently.
    It is perhaps ironic (or perhaps not) that a Kol Isha equivalent is the law in Iran.
    What a fine example of legislative precedent !

    I suspect that the Board is unable to directly confront the Rabbinate and this is the reason that the only way they can bypass the Kol Isha discrimination is to get assistance from the secular authorities.

    To quote another ancient Jewish tradition   “Dina d'malkhuta dina”   The law of the land is the Law.



  17. 8 Bob 22 Apr
    I'm wondering if the Nazis spent this much time deliberating over who was and was not Jewish? Did they only send our grandparents to the gas chamber if they identified themselves as "orthodox"?
    A suggestion then - every one who identifies themselves as being Jewish attends the function - and just as at "orthodox" weddings when the mixed dancing begins - those who's sensibilities are affected, quietly excuse themselves at the "appropriate" time? 
  18. 7 Dov 26 Apr
    @Bob - the problem with that suggestion is that many people, including this publication, in the past slammed those that excused themselves when a woman started singing but claiming that they were embarrassing the singer. At an event, about 9 years back I think, a woman sang and the rabbi's that were in attendance, quietly exited. No shouting, no stone throwing. They simply left and the uproar after that was ridiculous. If we are to be accepting of everyone's views, then surely we should be accepting of those who hold by Kol Isha? If there will be a woman singing, then, as you rightly suggest, let them slip away with no fuss.
  19. 6 Marc Lipshitz 27 Apr
    Rav Shalom tries to invoke "Hillel's Golden Rule" which is not his at all, but is from the Torah!  He also seems to forget the concluding phrase of what Hillel said - "now go and study!".  He stated the golden rule in the context of the Torah and adherence to Torah law something that reform and those trying to force non-adherence of Jewish law onto the Orthodox community very blatantly ignore!

    he thinks he can rewrite the halachic process, redefine it to suite what he wants, but that is NOT the way the halachah works!  You cannot just dump a custom because you decide it is no longer valid, just change the traditions because you think something else is better.  This falls into the category of hlachah d'chukotai- a law developed from a custom adopted by the community- and like other halachot it cannot be changed unless it can be shown to contravene the halachah from the Torah which is not the case here.  An example of this is kitniyot now on Pesach- for Ashkenazim this is a binding law and practice, we cannot just start eating kitniyot- the same applies here!  An example which is often relevant (but sadly few people know that this should be done) is when a person wants to change the nusach they daven in (going from Ashkenaz to sefard or Arizal of Tehillas Hashem or any other movement between nusachs) they should do an hateres nedarim before three kosher witnesses, not just change!  And this law has been universally accepted by Orthodox Jews for century, it cannot just be arbitrarily changed because some people are offended by Jews observing Jewish law!  And if you look in the quotes by Gary you will see the statement that the shul in question is the ONLY ONE to have women in its choir! 

    And of course all those advocating for the dumping of the restriction of kol isha continue to ignore one crucial factor- that if they force the board to allow women to sing, then they have effectively banned frum Jews from attending!  It is no longer an inclusive communal function- but one that excludes the frum Jewish community, one that states that frum Jews are not part of the community and are not welcome!
  20. 5 Bob 28 Apr
    @Dov, a good compromise is one in which all parties are equally unhappy :) 
    I think that if the Orthodox Rabbi's (and their affected community members) agreed to let a woman sing at the event on condition they could leave when she sang... the women would agree to let them leave without objecting after the fact. Worth a try, no? 

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