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Join vocal gay debate happening right now
ANT KATZ
South African Jewry is at its most vocal when the topic at hand relates to same-sex issues. This past week has been no exception and SAJR Online users have been vocally speaking out for and against the issue.
Of course news from the US and Israel led the debate, cleverly picked up on by Jewish Report’s past editor and now commentator Geoff Sifrin in his weekly “Taking Issue” column last week. SAJR Online users went into a chirp-fest – with shouts of everything from “abomination” to “welcome” – and everything in between.
Commenting on: ORTHODOX GROUPS BRACE FOR GAY-MARRIAGE FALLOUT, Choni Davidowitz somehow, as is his wont, found a way to make this about aliyah and commented: “Another very valid reason for Orthodox Jews in exile to move to Israel, where this issue will never arise.” Really? Gabi’s post ended with the comment that “The liberals are in fact the bigots,” while Jill pointed out that “It is written that G-d abhors homosexuality. What more needs to be said?”
Bill, in response to Choni, posted: “Then move already, Choni.”
But it was Geoff Sifrin’s CAN SA JEWRY PROVIDE A HOME FOR SAME-SEX MARRIAGES? that really got users chirping. As usual, Choni managed to get in first with: “Mr Sifrin’s comments are once again completely anti-Torah”, followed by another stalwart, Nat Cheiman, who wrote: “That question does not arise. The Torah is clear on … abomination.”
Gillian chirped that “While the majority of SA Jews affiliate with Orthodoxy, they are not themselves Orthodox. The vast majority of SA Jews are not observant of Jewish law, so they should have no problem accepting gay marriage, inasmuch as they accept Sabbath desecration and eating non-kosher.”
Nat’s response was quick, short and sweet: “Obviously not!!!!!!!”
Marc Feitelberg thanks Geoff for “the important article. I wanted to add that Rabbi Greg Alexander from Temple Israel in Cape Town provides a wonderful warm and fully embracing ‘home’ for the LGBT Jewish community.”
Marc says that Rabbi Alexander, who is chairman of the SA Association of Progressive Rabbis (the de facto Progressive chiefrRabbi in SA) “is truly inspiring”.
Gabi chirped, in part, that she loves the way “liberal and secular are in the same sentence. You ask a ‘liberal secular’ Jew if they are willing to hear the Orthodox side with an open mind?”
Choni then got cleverly facetious to illustrate his point: “Hymie ‘marries’ Abe. Sarah ‘marries’ Hannah!” commented Choni. “Sifrin, do you really believe an Orthodox community will ever welcome these couples with open arms especially to a shul?” he asked.
Rabbi Adrian M Schell of Bet David in Sandton then joined the debate, saying that he had read the article about providing a home for same sex-couples in SA congregations with great interest. “I agree with you that this is an important theme for all Jewish communities in SA,” wrote Rabbi Schell, “and we should start an open and honest debate about it, rather sooner than later.”
However, said Schell, “I don’t share your view that lesbians and gays have no Jewish home in SA at all.” He went on to point out that Progressive communities are “very much alive and reflect beautifully what is the common sense and approach of the Progressive/Reform movement worldwide. This means that gays and lesbians, as well as all other members of our Jewish community are welcomed and have a home in our congregations, to honour their Jewish heritage and to build up a Jewish future.
And, without doubt, “gays and lesbians can sanctify their partnership in the form of a chuppah and civil union in all Progressive communities in SA,” wrote Schell. READ WHAT ELSE HE HAD TO SAY ABOUT THIS.
Rabbi Schell also referred to the Progressive community in SA as being “robust and growing.” This inspired user Warren to chirp: “The Progressive Jewish Community in South Africa is robust and growing…” Is it really?
Further contributions to the debate can be read at:
- Alvin Kushner, chair, SAUPJ: Taking issue with Geoff Sifrin;
- Rabbi Schell: Gays may sanctify union in Progressive shuls;
- Choni: Sexual transgressions are ‘ultimate sin’ -Torah;
Join the conversation
JOIN THE CONVERSATION by clicking on any of the (blue) linked pages. Readers and users are welcome to comment on anything they see on SAJR Online and can do so either anonymously or in their own names – but, as always, subject to our moderation and rules of engagement – see COMMENT GUIDELINES and general LEGALS.
Choni
Jul 11, 2015 at 4:52 pm
‘\”I was brought up to believe that nobody should question our Torah\” . These (wise) words were written by our editor Antony Katz. I agree 100% with his sentiments.
In the context of sexual transgressions, I am of the opinion that the word (not) \”question\” is very relevant, and there should be no debate on this issue, otherwise Antony’s statement is meaningless.
‘
ANT KATZ
Jul 12, 2015 at 8:37 am
‘Hi Choni. Yes, I did write that, as you have repeatedly been quoting for several weeks. However, that does not for one moment suggest I have the right to deny those who believe otherwise their freedom of thought or speech‘
Dov
Jul 12, 2015 at 6:38 pm
‘There’s really nothing new here. The reform don’t believe in the divinity of Torah, and will therefore change, or re-form Judaism to suit whatever they feel is appropriate at the time. Right or wrong, it’s what defines them.
the orthodox, by definition, remain true to Torah, and cannot condone homosexual sex. Right or wrong, it’s what defines them.
So, no big revelations here.
‘
Joshua
Jul 14, 2015 at 2:32 pm
‘I am sorry but I am going to weigh in here. I’m going to be quoting religious texts in this quite a bit because I am such a sucker for verse. As it says in Genesis 1:27:(Insert preacher voice here) \”So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
So now not only are we saying G-d is not perfect by judging homosexuals but we are now also saying that we are better then G-d at judging his creations? How self centered are we that we not only are prepared to say G-d is flawed but we are the ones fit to \”fix\” his \”mistakes\” and judge homosexuals! No way.
Would it not be defeatist? Why create beings, give them a preordained future,give them free will to get to that future you have created for them (which is a hard physical life now and a peaceful and rewarding after life with Him later), and then damn your children for all eternity for using the free will you gave them in the first place to get them to the future which was preordained knowing what they would do with it?
If we are all created in G-ds image as we know we are and we know G-d does not have to create or do anything He does not want to then surely hating his creations which are created in his image for his universal plan is to hate G-d? I know I am not that brave to tangle with the almighty. I have a profound love of G-d and choose to believe in Him as benevolent and loving as opposed to malevolent and bigoted.
You get people who will throw around religious texts about Homosexuality being an abomination and how the act will end in death for the participants, but in the same book it talks about blood for blood and murder being wrong!
We have to as humanity be progressive or we WILL die out that is the concrete cold fact. If two men want to get married this is not going to herald the apocalypse, mankind will not die out for being open minded. Being Gay is not something a person can control anymore then their skin color. People do not choose to be gay, who would choose to be part of a culture where people want to stone you or throw you off buildings, persecute you and call you an abomination. It is something you either are or you arnt . Its not like a smoker who can just quit. so to say that legalization of gay marriage will breed more gay people is like saying giving white people equal rights will make more people white. Also those gay couples will most likely adopt a child who would otherwise have never had an opportunity at a family unit. Why is that a bad thing?
Come on lets be sensible.
‘